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Post by sooner535 on Aug 3, 2015 18:32:22 GMT -5
This mod is a bit of a pet project I have had lately, I have been wanting to help revive the modding community for this game for awhile so here is a new mod: www.mediafire.com/download/qf51i43swtx879n/Wizardry+v2.zipclass description: "With the war in Elysium bringing the demand for mages to a new height the Archmage himself steps in to train and foster new spell casters, unfortunatelly the other would be kings and queens see this as a threat and move in to destroy the Archmage and his army of spell casters. With this new developement mages everywhere flock to server the Archmage in his now considered justified war to become leader of all of Elysium. Archmage Teacher is a terrifying spell caster but is weak in melee, use BattleMages to defend him and the other mages so they might rain magic upon your foes. Magical Students are young men looking to become spell casters, use gold to pay for books and the occasional incident and they can become a force to be feared. Adepts are the beginning of the magical ladder and have little magical abilities and low health, turn them into BattleMages or Mages to build a strong and versatile force. Mages are your ranged spellcasters, low HP and multiple spells make them good support but terrible front liners protect them at all cost. BattleMages are your frontlines capable of lifting shields and minor spell castings they will make sure your Mages do not fall. Each class has specific bonuses such as: Iron Arcana gives +1HP and +1Armor so you should make these your BattleMages Infernal gives fire protection but also cold vulnerability, use these against pyromancers and warlocks with lots of fire elementals. Serpent gives the user poison immunity making them a good front or back line combo with almost any unit. Druidism gives the user forest stealth and disease immunity giving them a versatile skill set for ambushes against the demonologist. Command gives leadership bonuses allowing all your mages to better protect against fear and corruption, be sure to bring 1 or 2 along. Illusionism gives the user Ethereal making them the perfect counter to mass damage of non-magical soldiers. Finally Blood gives the user Berserk giving HP bonuses and increased morale and strength." EDIT: v2 is up with following changes: All mages have stats similar to mages already ingame (str, mr, and mor) this will make awe and the likes work against them better Added a basic banner
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Post by Marlin on Aug 24, 2015 13:49:34 GMT -5
With a class that is all commanders, no rank and file troops (except for what creatures might be charmed or enslaved), this mod of yours certainly stands out in an interesting way. To be honest, before I saw it, I wouldn't have thought it was possible even. However, like I said on Steam, I find it a bit distracting how several of the abilities and properties of individual humans (in particular the super-wizard leading the faction, of course) are over the top – in some cases seemingly breaking with what the background fluff text is saying, in other cases outright superhuman or even super-everything (above what even top monsters such the demon lords, or even Baal the God, have). It has also struck me that the management of the class could be simplified in a few ways. - The seven spell attacks of the faction leader, drawing from seven different schools of magic:
You may not want to hear this – as you obviously really wanted your top wizard to be absolutely as kick-ass as you could possibly make him – but to me this first item is a major problem both management-wise and to my immersion in the game.
- First, the list of spells (up to level 3 even), from seven different schools of magic, just isn't handled well by the game. That is, the list won't fit at all on one screen, forcing you to scroll down through it, in order to check all spells and deselect any and all of them affecting the whole battlefield. (Something that's basically never necessary with the built-in spellcasters of the game.) The game furthermore handles this scrolling clunkily, resetting it whenever you check the info for a spell.
For myself, I found all this scrolling extremely frustrating, and, even after you're done with your initial spell selections, I imagine it'll be very hard to maintain any kind of overview as to what spells he knows. So, regardless how many spell attacks you give him, I would very much suggest that you make the faction leader stick to no more than two schools of magic!
The built-in archmage of the game does golden arcana and iron arcana (at level two "only"), but your arch magus or archmage teacher could of course do two entirely different schools, such as wizardry and illusionism perhaps. (At least the elemental magic schools – pyromancy, hydromancy and storm magic – seem in any case kind of superfluous if he also knows wizardry.)
- Second, regarding immersion, I tend to think that more than three attacks – of any kind – per battle round is probably over-the-top for any human in the game. I.e. I would consider what the Old Weapon Master can do to be the limit of what's humanly possible. Regarding spell attacks specifically, I furthermore don't think there is any single human in the game who can do more than two per battle round – in fact, I can think of only one human who can do that many, namely the built-in archmage of the game (who can do two spell attacks at level 2).
For that matter, even the most capable demon lords – or even Baal the God – can't do more than two spell attacks per turn (at level 3). Only the (elder) beholder comes close to the capability of your super-wizard. The elder beholder can do six spell attacks at level 2 – compared to the seven at level 3 of your faction leader.
And on top of that, the human wizard faction leader has, for some reason (despite the background text saying he "is weak in melee"), unrestricted access to all those spell attacks in melee too. (Unrestricted spell-casting in melee is, by the way, a capability I can't recall seeing for any human outside this faction.)
Of course, reducing the number of attacks (not just the number of magic schools), might have to be compensated with more spell power elsewhere – if you feel you have the class balanced with the current powers of its leader. One option would be to just add more starting wizards. (Even just one old wizard should probably compensate for more than one of the leader's spell attacks, as it there is value in being able to split your wizardly powers.) Another option might be to add some upgrade path to a level three wizard (I notice there is currently none).
Then again, yet another possibility to perhaps consider would be to drop the whole idea of the faction leader being human at all, and instead just say he is the god of wizards, or something.
- Basic properties
So let's move on to the basic properties – keeping in mind that all numbers mentioned discount any and all bonuses, whether from experience, magic items, blessings or spells.
- Since my first post about your mod (on Steam), you've lowered both strength and morale of your faction leader enough that I can't complain about those two anymore. In fact, I would have been OK with 4 for strength and 7 or possibly even 8 for morale, depending on how fanatical you'd want to make him. But I think the values now given him – strength 3 and morale 6 – are very appropriate for a human wizard: Physically weaker than the average human, but morally decidedly tougher, without being fanatical. (The 10 for morale that you previously gave him seemed too much, as it was, among humans, matched almost only by the batshit crazy Grand Necromancer, well, the paladins too. And the 10 for strength was obviously way, way over the top for any human.)
- However, where on earth does the +2 on his dagger come from? That's just totally inexplicable to me, in particular with a strength of only 3 and with a background text that, again, says he "is weak in melee". (Not that the standard game is entirely consistent with attack bonuses relative to strength, but an innate attack bonus as high as +2 is very rare among humans and I doubt it will be found for any human with a strength lower than 5.)
- The same goes for the 10 hit points plus 1 armor (!). That's what a heavy infantryman has, for a wizard who "is weak in melee"? The only other human spellcaster with any armor value at all, or with as much as 10 hit points, is, I believe, the Warlock of Earth (who incidentally also has a +2 to his weapon – with a strength of 5). That guy becomes even stronger, by the way, after advancing to Great Warlock of Earth, but he is someone totally dedicated to earth magic and only earth magic, whereas the leader of this faction doesn't even do earth magic – at all – even among the seven schools of magic given him. (Note that even the warlock of earth can't freely use his spells in melee, though.)
By far the most common among human spell casters (including all warlocks other than that of earth) is 5 hit points (and definitely no armor). The old wizard has 4. Some can, from divine protection or whatever reason, have a few hit points more, though.
- Finally (and, yes, I see that you lowered it from your earlier 25 (!) but...),
an innate magic resistance of 15 is also definitely over the top, for any human – or for almost anything, I'd say. I don't know of any single creature in the game with an innate magic resistance that high! (Excluding bonuses from experience, magic items, blessings or spells.) In fact, 10 seems to be the absolute ceiling for almost everybody. Even the demon lords and Baal the God have no more than 10 for innate magic resistance. (I have seen one creature exceeding that: a "Maker of Ruins" with 12 for magic resistance and 15 for strength, but that's truly a one-of-a-kind monster that you will very rarely see in any game.)
So, I would strongly suggest that you lower the innate magic resistance of the faction leader to 10!
The magic resistance of the other mages should be lowered by about 2, I think. (None of them should have a magic resistance higher than 8, as almost no other human level 2 spellcaster in the game has that.) The magic resistance of the acolytes could probably be lower by 1, to 6.
- Innate properties versus boosts from magic items
The way that spirit sight was made an innate ability of the faction-leading super-wizard is another thing that left me wondering. (It seems to me that this ability is otherwise only given creatures of a spiritual or otherworldly nature, not generally to human wizards.)
However, given that spirit sight is among the current properties of the faction leader, it struck me there is an alternative way to give him that, and more, that doesn't require any weird explanations.
How about having the Arch Magus (or teacher) always start with a Staff of the Arch Magi?
startitem "Staff of the Arch Magi" (Note: Be sure to add the startitem command after any commands to give him random items, or else the staff might be accidentally replaced by some random weapon.)
If you do that, he will have spirit sight from the staff, so you can drop his innate ability. He will also start at one spell level higher than his nominal one, so you can lower the nominal level of all his spell attacks to 2 (making him at least a little bit more human) without actually weakening them at all.
The same device could obviously be employed to boost his power in other ways. Do you really feel he should have those 10 hit points and 1 armor and also some extra magic resistance? Why, let him start with Mirror Armor, and he will have all of that.
- Abilities acquired per choice of magic path
While I can understand a wish to make the seven paths of magic that you have provided for the faction more interesting, the bonuses largely seem a bit contrived to me and in some cases completely off.
- Among the built-in human spell casters of the game, the only ones to get specific abilities and bonuses tied to their path of magic are, I think, the warlocks – well them and also the garnet sorceress and priestess (whose school of magic largely is a weaker version of pyromancy, one of the elemental magic schools). In other words, the only schools of magic that in the standard game seem to naturally confer abilities and bonuses to their practitioners are the schools of elemental magic.
Note though, that pyromancers don't get the fire immunity of warlocks of fire (and also of garnet sorceresses and priestesses), so it may be that some kind of deeper bond to the respective element is needed, beyond the wielding of elemental magic.
On the other hand, none of the practitioners of snake magic, for instance, (and also of the similar jade sorcery) are to my knowledge immune to poison or bestowed with any other bonuses linked to their magic path. Similarly, druidism seem to come with no such bonuses. Actual druids have forest stealth, but other practitioners of druidism, such as the hoburg horticulturists, have not. And so on.
- Some bonuses may work if you just provide explanations for them in your background fluff text for the class (the class description). For instance, if your mages of druidism don't just know druidism magic, but are also leading the lives of druids, then perhaps they could also pick up the skill of forest stealth. Maybe.
- Other bonuses are probably best dropped. For instance, immunity to disease is an ability that I doubt that any truly living being in the standard game has! Real actual druids certainly don't, not even elder druids. It's an ability for golems, undead and the likes. It furthermore has the drawback of being among those unit properties that the game fails to show in the unit info box – making it hard to remember, unless it seems natural. (By the way, disease in Elysium is clearly a magic foulness with nothing whatsoever to do with any findings of the earthly modern science of microbiology.)
...And, sorry about being perhaps reiterative, but, regarding the leadership bonus granted the mages of command magic: Not only do I fail to see any natural link between the two. (What has the ability to inspire confidence in your subordinates to do with the manipulating and control of enemy minds? And why should other mages, even the faction leader, be subordinate to those wielding command magic?) It is also one more case of over-the-top numbers, I think. I have never seen any other leader match the leadership of 5 given even the command adepts of the wizardry faction. In fact, I don't think I have seen anyone beat the Baron's leadership of 2.
- An ability to manufacture specific magic items?
Unfortunately, I can't think of a way to make the trick of doling out specific magic items work with mastery (to replace the intrinsic bonuses now granted on mastery into adept with some signature magic item instead, unique to each magic path).
However, it does seem possible to add rituals to make magic items. For instance, the following added to the definition of a commander will give him the ability to make a pair of Boots of the Swamp for 75 gold.
sumpow 123400 sumcost 0 75 sumcosttype 0 0 ritualname 0 "Make Boots of the Swamp"
event ritualevent 123400 100 9 -5 -5 "Boots of the Swamp" endevent The boots will land in his square, though not necessarily on him, if there is another commander there who can wear boots. (Some commander with a free boots slot must be there, of course, or the boots will be lost.)
As always, whenever you make use of sumpow in a mod, make sure the numbers aren't used by any other mod, clearly declare what sumpow values you have used, and try to stick to a limited range of sumpow values, so as to make it easy for other modders to avoid clashing with your numbers. For instance, if you go with 123400, as in the example above, you might claim sumpow values up to 123499 (100 values in all), and it should be more than enough for your needs.
Now, I don't know if this is really the best way to boost your faction – if it needs that (to compensate for all the "nerfing" I am elsewhere suggesting). One drawback with the item manufacture is I haven't found a good way to have multiple commanders "work together" on the same type of item. (Sadly, it's not possible to define a high cost in action points for a ritual, which otherwise could have encouraged multiple commanders to work on the same thing.) I am just throwing it out as a suggestion.
- BattleMages
So, suddenly there are human wizards excelling in close combat afoot, who are as tough as mounted knights (same HP and armor values), or tougher, as they have large shields compared to the ordinary ones of knights (and also with a strength greater than a knight's, and with a weapon bonus even matching that of the Barbarian Leader who has a strength of 6) – and with unrestricted spell casting ability in melee (which, again, I don't think any other humans have). And all that the background text has to say about them is to provide tips on how to make use of them!
Don't get me wrong. I realize that the battlemages are crucial to this faction, and although exceptionally strong they aren't exactly superhuman – possibly with exception for their unrestricted access to magic in melee. (By comparison, paladins have a combat caster ability that raises the normal 25% chance of successfully casting spells in melee to 50%, that's it, but given that no way to add that particular ability seems to be provided in the somewhat skimpy set of modding commands for the game, I'd say you are forgiven for exceeding it.)
All I'm saying here is that some background fluff on the battlemages would probably be good.
- Magic Students
A management problem finally: Your "Magical Student" ("Magic Student" would, by the way, sound better to me), one of which is recruitable every turn, is so insanely cheap at only 1 gold that I think it is a no-brainer to get each and every one offered.
Now, this may be precisely as intended, of course. Again, the class will never be able to recruit (or summon) rank and file troops, and there is only one student per turn.
However, if so, I would suggest simplifying things by having the home citadel auto-spawn one student per turn, instead of requiring them to be manually (and repetitively) recruited:
event classterrevent "Arch Magus" 88 100 -1 2 -5 -5 -1 "Magic Student" endevent (Obviously, if you do this, the gold income should probably be reduced by – at least – one /the starting village changed into a hamlet at most, this doesn't take winters in account; also don't forget to remove the addcomrec command, of course.)
Finally, just to make sure, despite my long-winded criticism above, I really do appreciate the out-of-the-box class ideas you have come up with, both here and in your assassins mod, I hope that's clear. I just think it's still important to respect conventions of the standard game, and wherever you deviate from those conventions, to provide good, coherent explanations for it in your background fluff text (class description). (Plus, also, to recognize UI shortcomings of the game and adapt to them.)
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Post by sooner535 on Aug 24, 2015 15:29:51 GMT -5
Here are the responses:
1st point the leader of the race: The Archmage Teacher has devoted his life to the pursuit of magic, it makes sense of course for him to be extremely powerful in that aspect (his HP was 5 idk I may have accidentally grabbed an old test of some new stuff, I will fix this however) he is the best support mage in the game but, as with all mages 1 mistake can leave you without him (and if you have tried to play without him you will notice that you will quickly run into trouble). As for his armor and +2 dagger, they are both bonuses from his magical nature (skyrim allows you to cast a buff on your weapon and this is similar) his armor is upped for the exact same reason. Scrolling for his spells I admit is a huge pain, but it is one I cannot simply fix, I thought about dropping his schools by 2 and seeing if that would fit properly. Finally his spirit sight is yet again his magical study, as a mage spending his entire life studying the different forms of magic he would have also studied certain things like ghosts, as such he has a innate ability to see such things.
2nd point innate abilities of the mages: I would think it would not be a stretch of the imagination to see why a command mage has leadership, why a illutionist has ethereal, and why a fire mage has fire resist (but cold vul) as for the druid I was actually thinking of removing their bonuses (except forest stealth) because like you had said I found most disease is of the magical nature rather than naturalistic (for which the druid would be more immune to).
3rd point Naming of Magical Student: Yes I agree with you Magic Student is such a better name, I feel idiotic for not thinking of it lol.
4th point battlemages: while the night is a force to be reckoned with they do not have the magic that a BM does, as such I saw it fit to buff them a bit to show off their magical bonuses to themselves. Furthermore without them at current levels the class would simply not survive any encounter with larger forces.... I have to make a compromise here and there so they can at least survive lol.
5th point spawning of magical students: I didn't want people reliant on a summon nor, did I want them to not spend the gold. As the Archmage I feel your gold coffers should be spent on the cost of training these colossal mages and you should have to spend almost every gold piece you make to keep your army trained, these mages are not your typical mages they are stronger, bettter equipped, and you get to diversify a lot with them. As such the students need to stay at 1g because there is barely enough gold for the mage anyway, and so later they have a limiter on how much damage they can shove out.
6h point magic resistance: I will probably be dropping these a bit but, the AM will remain above normal mages while everyone else kinda hovers around there (BMs will have less than normal though) thank you for pointing this out to me.
Finally point 7 which is the description of the class: I have always hated having to do long descriptions lol, but if you feel it can help my class I will take more time to do that for this and other mods.
I appreciate your response to my mod, some of the stuff may change others may not. I do thank you for the help balancing this faction out and hopefully we can bring them into a better standing with the others.
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